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Just checking. I use the half pencil across first two frets to mark a line on the nut. I use a 16" radius block to shape top of nut. But I don't sand to that line as it's the fret height. I get close, considering how I will set slot depths. I like the final nut slot depth to leave high e about 1/64" above first fret and 2/64" for low e. I don't go there on initial slotting, but that's the goal. Does this sound reasonable?

I fret between the second and third frets to just get clearance at the first fret. Once the heights are set, the top of the nut is finished to cosmetic " looks good".
Tom

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That's how I do it with the pencil. Good idea with the radius block! Those figures sound slightly high, but probably a good place to start.

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Pat

Right? I stumbled onto it earlier this year, but it's how I shape the arch on my saddles now, too. Quick and effective.


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Shaping the height of the nut is the last thing I do. I get it close using the pencil method, set my slots then set the height of the nut based on the string per slot. Half the diameter of the string sits proud of the nut...

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Sounds a little high to me. I typically shoot for .010-.012 on the wound strings and a little less on the unwound strings.

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Mike good going and that's a good start but the slots will still be too high to be considered a decent final set-up.

There are lots of numbers out there such as the half the diameter of the string thing but these are safe starting points and not intended to be a final nut height.

Here is my approach:

1) With the nut blank fully fitted to the channel for the nut, this means completely down on both ends and fitting snuggly enough that you can lift the neck of the guitar off the bench by the nut only the half pencil is deployed and the first of two lines is drawn.

2) With a sharpened mechanical pencil with a very thin lead the ends of the fret board, the underside of the nut where it sits in the channel, and the transition to the headstock head plate is also drawn on the two ends.

3) Remove blank and free hand draw a second line that is the anticipated thickness of the strings above the initial half pencil line. This line should be greater than the diameter of the strings but not by much or you will have more work than you need to have to knock the nut face height down.

4) Off to the disc sander to sand a top profile into the nut to the line that is anticipated to be the string height or greater.

5) Then off to the BABS (big arse bent sander) to sand in a back bevel to the back side of the nut reducing the amount of material that the nut files will have to deal with.

6) Then the nut goes back on the guitar and the outer two string positions are marked, using appropriate files the slots are started, strings are put on the guitar and the two e strings are tuned to pitch and placed in the started slots.

7) From here the two e strings are slotted to near final depth.

8) Using the Stew-Mac string spacing rule the other string locations are marked and one by one the other strings are put on as we cut each slot to near final depth. I frequently check as I am cutting nut slots with the spacing rule, I may do it 20 times in the entire process to be sure that my slot locations don't wander as I am cutting the slots to near final depth. See below for how I cut to final depth using the get and hold method.

9) Once all the slots are cut to near final depth and the instrument is strung and tuned to pitch using a large file the nut top is filed right smack down until the file is hitting the strings. This initial set of strings is sacrificed in the operation.

10) Once the strings are all in contact with the file, they get shiny where we are hitting, the strings come off, the nut comes out, hand files are used to fit the ends, smooth the edges, shape the thing into a more eloquent piece and remove excess material.

11) It's sanded with 320 and then taken to the nut buffer. You guys can use micro-mesh if you don't have a place to stick your nuts and buff then up..... (that should get a comment or two...)

12) Avoid sanding or polishing the nut where it fits in the nut channel or you will screw up the snug fit that we reached earlier.

13) Once the nut is scratch free, shiny, beautiful looking it's installed on the instrument and then during the final set-up stage the slots are taken down to final height.

What is that final height?

Good question....

Using the fret and hold between the 2nd and third each nut slot is cut to final height. For us final height of the high e may be .001" above the first fret and each string as they increase in diameter the distance from the first fret increases. What is that distance precisely? Can't tell you it's what looks and feels right but without the string ever in contact with the first fret when holding fretting between the 2nd and third.

I have a nut making toot that I will try to find and post.

Also we think that it was Dan E. who started the string should be half it's diameter proud of the nut slot thing and we don't subscribe to this. It looks great, true, but deeper nut slots won't harm a thing and the final nut slot depth should ultimately be a function of the relief of the instrument and the desire for superb playability meaning absolutely minimal effort required to fret a note.

Just searched the toots and my nut making toot is not on the OLF.

I may put it here if folks request that I do but for now here is a pic of the part that tends to scare some folks.... Filing the nut top down to the strings on the guitar.

I've included a pic of the fret and hold method too. Let me know if my toot might be helpful and I'll throw it up here.

I got the radius block idea from John LeVan video (above). Made my own using fret press shape (stew Mac). Block is 3.25" long by 3/8" thick by 1.5" tall. Just right for holding in my left hand.

So Hesh, it sounds like u keep the nut a smidge tall, slot both e's till they pass your height requirement, do the others, then sand nut down to top of strings. I assume this is with the relief already set.

Hesh: Lots of great info but what's the logic of the increase of distance as the strings increase in diameter? If one use's a zero fret the heights are all the same.........fret height. The bigger strings are of course rougher and one could say more wear in tuning....thus more clearance but more clearance is not something I do as the norm. Not a player here but when I do mess around I tend to dig in a bit so my action is not set to the minimum, though I do set up with very little relief.
Tom

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Yep you always set the relief prior to cutting nut slots to final depth or, if there is too much relief and you set the nut slots height they can end up being too low when you set relief.

I wouldn't say we leave the nut a bit tall but I would say that we don't subscribe to the half string diameter proud concept nor do the vast majority of makers either. What's important is that the slots are wide enough for the string to pass through without binding when being tuned but not too wide either. I usually use a file closely matching the respective string diameter for that slot and scrape the slot sides on the down stroke with the file to make the slot a tad wider than the respective nut slot file and string. Slots should also accommodate the next step up in strings too meaning if cutting for a 12 make sure that a 13 won't bind either.

There are players who can pull a half proud string right out of the slot so that's why we go to around full string diameter depth for how much of a string is proud of the nut slot.

A suggestion for you: A radius gauge can get you a nice gentle curve matching what ever radius that you want but ultimately the nut slot depth and string diameter is what suggests the top profile for the nut. Playability comes first and then we create the appearance of the nut top to match removing excess material and blending in surfaces to look eloquent, minimalistic, and scratch free.

With this said if you are getting the idea that we believe that nuts need to be made on the specific instrument you're right.

A really talented Luthier can make a great nut in 25 - 30 minutes from raw bone to final install. I take longer.....

But what I really, really want to drive home here is that all nuts be they commercial or made from scratch need to be fitted and adjusted for the exact instrument that they are going on with no exceptions.... Sure you can buy a commercially available nut, Tusq comes to mind but they always require fitting and customizing for the specific instrument they are going on. This is of course if you want the instrument set-up very well and very playable.

Folks ask us to install commercially available nuts and we usually decline indicating that it's the same amount of effort as making a better nut..... from scratch and bone.

That little sliver of bone or what ever is a VERY important part of a successful instrument and since it's very much part of the user interface to the playability of the instrument it can make or break one's impression of how easy the guitar is to play.

Nut making can be a lot of fun too and every time I do it I imagine what the guys back in the days of the wooden sailing ships must have felt wile doing scrimshaw work.

Again I would recommend dedicated, gauged nut slot cutting files for clean, well made slots that don't bind and are not V shaped.

We can talk about the slots too because there are lots of things that can be issues such as the sitar sound from a shallow slot or a slot with a hump in the middle. Spacing is key and if the spacing looks off to the naked eye it likely is and will detract from the overall appearance of the nut.

Personally I love nuts that are finished into the instrument such as Martin does and G*bson has done and still does for some models. Matching the nut sides is one of the last hurdles to making an excellent, eloquent and well fitting nut.

Some of you guys stress over thin glue lines, nuts are no different and the fit should be every bit as tight as a great glue line.

I'll also add that for those who sell differentiation is key to your value add over a f*ctory instrument. Even Chinese Recording King is producing guitars these days for a bit of three bills that have bone nuts and saddles likely hand crafted (although not at all well....). Our mission should we choose to accept it is to do all things superior to what the f*ctory offering offer and between us that is NOT a very high bar....

Two things and good question. First the larger the string the more inertia it has as it's lashing, remember Newton with that apple on his head.... As such more clearance is required, more lash, more clearance. Next and related a thicker string will ark more over the nut slot and frets too when fretted so the clearance can be lower because of the ark.

It's our task to reconcile these two things to cut the slot as low as possible but with the string never buzzing open when struck moderately hard. An open string buzz is more often than not a slot that is too low. One trick Luthiers do when this happens is back file the slot into a greater angle exploiting the string ark and that at times can take the buzz away as the exploited string ark raises the string over the first fret crown. If it does not take the buzz away the slot has to be filled and we use UV cured dental fillings, much harder than CA and bone dust and likely as hard or harder than the bone itself.

So Tom with a zero fret the heights are NOT all the same because of the thicker strings ark more over the zero fret or coming out the nut face of the slot. Make sense?

Hesh, on ur 3rd fret test u mentioned 0.001" clearance at first fret for high e, but no mention for low e.

This is interesting cause it was David Collins years ago here that mentioned the half proud thing.....Even Frank Ford's site on nuts says about half proud is ideal http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Musicia ... nuts3.html

I understand what you're talking about though as it is the players needs that matter...

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Good question!

Not all things Lutherie are a spec or manufacturer's suggested number but instead what looks and feels right. This is where the craft becomes less science and more art and the "touch" thing such as around the greens in golf comes into play.

I well cut high e might be a range anywhere from .0005" to .002". I will tell you too that this is also a range that I can't always see but rely on my hearing too in that if there is a gap, even if I can't see it between the high e bottom and first fret crown the hold and fret thing will result in a audible "tink" if a gap exists.

For the low e no spec either but we want clearance and more clearance than the high e again because of the increased inertia of a more massive string and it's ability and tendency to lash out further because of this inertia.

What could be a range for a low e? I've never measured it so I will guess so please take this for what it's worth, a guess... .005" - .012". .012 is on the high side mind you.

Who's playing it and what they play can come into play too. A ham fisted bluegrasser with mediums will need more clearance than the very light touch player with arrested development with Buffy Saint Marie or Dylan tunes.

Pete Townshend will need higher nut slots than Leonard Cohen, etc.

By the way I got to speak with and meet Leonard Cohen once and I asked him about growing up a Canadian army brat, his Dad was a Major IIRC correctly.... Then I asked him about all the times he had to move as a kid.

At one point he looked at me and said "Hesh, you are depressing me...."

I depressed Leonard Cohen...... imagine that.....

Yep and you will frequently see Dave or I also suggest that this is how we are currently doing something because times and methods change as more and more folks share information and results.

It was common practice to cut the fret board extension off..... during a neck reset. These days it's a hack action and frowned upon fairly universally among Luthiers who get out once in a while and compare notes.

Lutherie in general suffers and has suffered from the solitary nature of our work. Some Luthiers may go an entire lifetime never spending any time in the shop of anyone else and as such their methods are as variable as they are flexible and interested in self improvement.

The very term "Luthier" has NO objective criteria for it's use.... Buy a SM kit and you can call your self a Luthier. On the other hand someone with two decades in the trade who has trained hundreds of working in the trade Luthiers, built several hundred successful guitars from scratch, worked at a world-class shop, and even was instrumental, pardon the pun in bringing a new guitar offering to market is also called..........Luthier.

We also have to ask ourselves what's more important a spec or playability? It's a no brainer for me and if the spec does not match the optimal setting for optimal playability to me it's a failed spec and tossed.

Here is something that you can do yourself and I'm willing to bet that you will expand your understanding of the nature of this conversation greatly with the assertion that I am making that Lutherie is not always a number or a spec. If you know how to cut nut slots properly and nice and low and you are SURE that you know this and have had scrutiny and assistance from well known experts cut the slots on the next 10 guitars that you encounter well. Then also measure how much of the string is proud of the nut top surface. I suspect that it's likely that out of those 60 strings not a single string will remain proud of the nut top. Why? Because f*ctory guitars and small builders rarely cut nut slots well. We instead concentrate on what ever flips our switch, bling, glue joints, rosettes, everything but what will ultimately be the intended function of the thing, to play and sound great and be a tool for musicians.

Dan is a friend of ours and we have some of his Dad's tools in our shop. Dan got started in Lutherie in the previous location of our shop in Ann Arbor. He's been key to expanding the trade just as Frank has been but there is one thing that you will see with these guys like Dan, Frank and Dave Collins who push and expand the envelope and share with the rest of the world.

The methods change, at times radically.... over time as we learn more, design and create new tools, encounter new issues, and I'll add because it can be related, become better business people too. We move on and a method once advocated and in some of the books that have been around for a decade or more are often not considered the best practice these days.

Forums can be helpful provided that who one tunes into actually know what they are doing.... Many forums can be a source of spreading really bad information..... to the point where it's laughable and ignorant... Forums also suffer from pros not wanting to participate because someone who does not know what they are talking about feels entitled to publicly challenge someone who's food on their family table comes from their pubic persona as a pro Luthier.

The working in the trade world of Lutherie is VERY different from what folks are exposed to here. There are even double secret gatherings deep in the woods where some of the top names in the biz including Frank and Dan compare notes but do so off the record and away from the forums.

Anyway specs are interesting to consider but they are not always what's done these days, a hard fast rule, or even a good idea - they are just specs.

At some point the really great Luthiers develop the "touch" and it can serve them very, very well.

Thanks. That helps.

Btw, my original question was about initial nut height. I think somewhere I read (and perhaps misunderstood) that the flat pencil mark was where u sanded before slotting. I now know that's a bad idea. Explains why it used to take me several nuts to get one right. As for the radius block, use a file, use a block. I do have to admit I like the look the block creates. And it hate bringing metal cutting tools to close to a finished body. So I guess I'll stick with the block.

Good going Mike!

The half pencil line that results is the line to avoid cutting the nut slots below, initially or they can be too low. I say initially because it's possible and not uncommon that if one ignores the line and cuts to the optimal depth based on the hold and fret method the slot can end up below that line because of the tendency of the sting to ark and not immediately follow the plane of the nut slot depth but be a tad higher again because of the ark thing.

My nuts..... have two lines on them. One from the half pencil and a second line that I eye ball that is intended to be slightly greater than the thickness of the respective string in that location. So my top line may be .014 for the high e over the half pencil line and the low e top line .060 above the half pencil line.

The purpose of the higher line is so that I can quickly remove most of the excess nut material on a disc sander so that I am not filing though more depth than necessary. It is also helpful in preventing the files from binding if the slot we are working on is not overly deep.

Regarding taking you several nuts to get it right that's excellent by the way. At least one of the schools and the one that I think is the best available school tells students that they need to make around 100 nuts before getting it right or even beginning to really understand what they are doing.... It is not uncommon at this school for a student to show the instructor their nut and have the instructor reply, that's nice as the instructor picks it up and looks at it and then tosses it in the trash instructing the student to make another one. This school gets corian in bulk for practice nut making.

I know that it's taken me likely close to a hundred nuts before I felt proficient enough to want to attempt to explain the process to others. By the way I've always been able to advance my own chops by trying to explain things to others in that it makes me think and get the steps in some semblance of a sequential order that makes sense or someone will surely call me on the deficiencies in my description or approach.

This is also what I have been trying to really drive home with you guys... too that if you cross the line from hobbyist to accepting money for your stuff you also cross the line into the land of professional scrutiny where someone, someday is going to have access to your stuff and comment accordingly. Rick Turner comes to mind... Rick is a friend too but boy when I first read what he wrote here I had a LOT of trouble with him until I went out and met him and spent some time talking with him. Rick asserted that if we do not pay attention to things such as repair, set-up, etc. we are only making GLO or guitar like objects. Rick was right and fortunately he was patient enough with me so that I could overcome in time being his heavymetalvomitdude......

I get-it that many of your guys are hobbyists and never intending to be pros. But if for no other reason than your own pride in accomplishment and personal achievement why not learn to do any of this stuff that we all have to do when building a successful guitar as well as possible? I was always a VERY competitive sort... an understatement and I'll likely die sooner because of it too. It's my nature.

For me personally Lutherie has provided me an outlet for my own creative expression and thirst for knowledge that I can only ever get so far and will never learn or know it all by any means. It's the hit TV show that never gets cancelled and will always offer more or the spouse who never gets fat and ugly but only looks better and sexier in time.....

I love Lutherie and guitars and even after 12 hours on my feet in a busy shop billing hundreds of dollars daily I come home, pick up a strat or Heshtone and play away. Then I check out the forums and see what's new or absurd.... and comment if I wish accordingly.

Tomorrow I will go into work and I have no idea what will come through the door or what I will be doing that's thrown at me and t's my job to make right. I love it and it's not unlike taking exams for me now where I can test out all that I have learned.

I may encounter a pre-war Martin tomorrow or an early Les Paul who the owner has no idea is worth more than his car.... By the way this was what I encountered the last day I worked last Friday. We may hear from someone with a D'Aquisto and a Navy Seal body guard or Jeff Daniels may stick his head above the stairs of our shop with his one of a kind Martin signature model. We can't know what will come our way but that's the attraction, part of it for me and I simply love it and have never been happier!

We do this thing in our shop too where we surprise folks and rip up the bill after we are sure that they are completely thrilled. We do it about once a month and it's a small thing that we do in an effort to give something back for how fortunate we have been with our business. It's very rewarding to make people happy and even more rewarding when it's unexpected.

I'm getting older and meaner these days and everything hurts.... I've been in the hospital three times this year so far and always with very painful stuff such as kidney stones or a hernia surgery that went south and got infected...

Sorry to digress but the point is that even after hours and hours and days and days of not very good times with my health one good day in the shop fixing guitars and making folks happy and I'm whole once again.

I love it!

PS: Sorry to be so pedantic.... just very happy with my lot in life!

I could never measure .001" Rick Davis taught me the ping method. I fret between the second and third fret and tap above second fret . I learned to listen for a ping when it is correct. This may be heretical but for my own guitars I let the high E and sometimes the B touch the first fret when the fretting in second position. They do not buzz. I am over 60 so any relief I can get for playing a first fret bar I will take.

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Rick and Cat are great people and you learned form some of the best! I think that you meant though that you tap over the "first" fret and fortunately get that "tink" sound. That's what I do too.

The problem with the tink sound only is that the string will tink when it's .012 high or .0005 high for a high e so the tink alone is only used by me to know that the string is not laying on the first fret and too low.

Dave describes what he sees, since he can still see..... as a "bending of light" but since I can't see I still look for a ever so small gap and of course I want to hear the tink too verifying that it's not too low. Plucking it moderately hard and if it does not buzz it's not too low as well.

Tell me please John since you did get out and train with some pros it was an eye opener I suspect?

It as as you describe for the ping or tink. I look as well but my eyes are not the best.

Working mostly with Rick and at times help from Cat I learned more than I can really describe. Especially setup. I built a guitar with him; also I took my next four guitars to him when finished (or so I thought). I think with new builders (especially with me) there is a fear of going to far. That really hurts setup, high action at the nut is a killer for playability. The same fear leads to stiff tops and thick necks. Having someone take your work and show you how to take it farther really helps. Also watching as they solve problem and use tools is instructional. Even going beyond guitar specific skills, little things like being corrected on how to hold and use a chisel and keep your other hand out of the way or how to use a rasp for a smooth line while carving are hard to get from a book.

I attribute a lot to the time I was able to spend in their shop. Also every time I am in his shop I look at his latest guitars and I know how far I still have to go

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Interesting to hear your thoughts on the "half string" slot depth Hesh.
There are a lot of people who believe and expound that any deeper muffles the string.
I have never seen or experienced how that could occur since there is no further contact with the string in the section above mid height and I have always preferred to have the greater security of full string depth.
It only really becomes a problem with comfort for the left hand if the nut protrudes too much.

Hi Jeff! That's our take on it too and it's kind of like the proclamation that one battery will sound better than a different brand battery in your fuzz face thing.... it just gets passed on in time until no one can remember the reasoning behind it if there ever was any.

My PRS had a sharp and proud nut corner that bothered me and I could feel it when playing. Made a new nut my way and problem solved.

Very cool and I am sure it was and is a great time. I have not met Cat yet but Dave Collins is a friend of both of them and he interacts with them off the forums. They know their stuff and then some!!

It's interesting that many of us approach Lutherie as a woodworking endeavor. It's that to a point then it becomes a Lutherie endeavor where playability, serviceability, etc. become every bit as important as the width of a glue line.

I'm sure you are WAY ahead for hanging with Rick and Cat - good going. Not everyone has the opportunity to check their progress with an industry pro and it can be humbling at times too but very much worth it!